126096-morning-coffee-514-a-day-late-edition
Content ---- ---- Yeah, no thanks. If I want to hear people talking out their butts about a game they don't even play and want to see fail, I can go to Facebook. :lol: | |} ---- HAHA. I just don't like how aggressive people get. I just like my happy little bubble.. please don't pop it. | |} ---- ---- ---- Yeah, I mean, you'd have to have your head buried in the sand not to expect *something* to change, given how poorly things were going for a while, there. It's easy to look around and see the rebound happening, I just hope/pray that those "bad financials" don't end up doing further harm to the community we have now. Meh. I'll be here, regardless, doing my thing when I feel like it and watching Netflix or HBO when I don't feel like it. I just don't get as emotionally invested in video games as I did a few years ago. In happier news, tonight is my youngest daughters saxophone premier with the school band. She's a Lisa Simpson in the making and has been practicing her bit for weeks - and tonight, she gets to play for her first audience. Such a proud Poppa! :wub: | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Not going anywhere yet, but I would. I promised I'd leave it with someone trustworthy who's planning to stay. I'm just aware of my position. I gave NCSoft a lot of rope to put my eggs in their basket, considering their reputation. If they fail at this, I'm not really interested in moving the goal posts for them and figuring they'll do something else they've never done; make an F2P game worth my time. For now, though, I'll see how it works out going forward. For all we know, they figure that selling through Steam is better return on their dollar than putting out a commercial. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, I've recommended that a few times. In a few different versions. However, with numbers like that, I don't know we'll be due for any non-predatory models. It's not like I'll just vanish, I'll read the fine print because I've stated quite a few models for cash shops, free options, etc. I'm just not confident between the giveaway fiasco and these statistics. | |} ---- Yeah, I won't play if I feel I am being preyed upon. But if a subscription entitles you to the entire arc of content, with no bars to bank/gear/runes/toons/etc. then yeah, I'm paying my sub. If they even lock subscribers out of content though, I will never look back. Cosmetic stuff, well ... I loves me some cash shops. Just don't get stupid with putting ALL the coolest new stuff there, cuz that's almost as bad as locking out content. | |} ---- ---- Well, that's how F2P generally works. Money has to come from somewhere, and if it's coming from a cash shop for items, including cosmetics, it's going to be stuff you'd want. Otherwise they wouldn't make any money. Now, if you had to buy keys on a free option to access dungeons and raids, but subscribers can run them unlimited for the price of the sub, that's completely acceptable to me. | |} ---- MOAR sparkly ponies! | |} ---- Oh yeah, I didn't mean it like don't put ANY of the cool stuff on the store. Derp. Of course, some it needs to go there. I was just saying like "Don't make the best sword skin a cash shop item and the latest raid skins look like recolored stuff from last year." The Best Looking stuff should always be the reward for the highest level content. That's all I was saying. And yeah, content locked behind the paywall is a wonderful incentive to pay your damn subscriptions! Which, honestly, is what F2P is *really* all about. Anyone who thinks otherwise is probably no more than 12 or 13 years old. :lol: | |} ---- If the model had traditionally gone that way instead of the way it went, I'd have less issue with it. At that point, it would be less "F2P" and more "pay on demand". | |} ---- Just know that I was in your shoes during the DC Universe F2P transition. I was convinced that the model was going to ruin the game, the community and force me to pay way more than I already was for the same experience. Honestly, they showed me I was concerned over nothing. The only thing that made me not want to be part of the DCUO community anymore was when they melded the on-line PC and Console communities. There was NO FREAKING WAY I was going to stick around and listen to console kiddies "talk" to me about the game. | |} ---- Oh know, I was in this position before as well. It didn't work out for me. I'm unfortunately very aware and I am coming from a background of personal experience. The only game that ever really, truly got better after an F2P transition to me was Conan, and that's only because it literally couldn't get any worse than it was at launch. I'll make an informed decision when/if they announce it, but it's not "nothing". These transitions can be and often are done in order to gut more money out of fewer willing players. Given your concerns about advertising in games, I do think it's interesting that you're fine with playing the video game version of a free vacation scheme. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- What she's not telling you is that the rocked the heck out of it, too :D Woot! | |} ---- ---- *Hands Cercie some coffee* You may need this and re-read what you wrote. :D | |} ---- I'm on less than 4 hours of sleep. Give me a break! #Housinghangover | |} ---- I told you to take a break.. several times #ToldYouSo | |} ---- #Can'tSleepTheClownsWillGetMe | |} ---- ---- We're always recruiting in the Blazing Saddles! | |} ---- And we have s'mores brownies ... | |} ---- Oh.... I'm doing it wrong.... I was going to say we have a massive railgun.... I don't know what they want these days.... | |} ---- We always enjoy PvE noobs in :) And If PvE = raiding, we have spots open :D | |} ---- ---- If you're on the forums and play WildStar, you belong here. I try and let everyone know that. We don't "own" this thread and everyone here wants more people to post. You are most welcome to add your voice here anytime. | |} ---- My guess is most people don't play the game because they are loyal to it, but because they find it fun and entertaining. I've never once paid a dime for this game or logged in out of loyalty. I pay and play because it's worth the time and money investment. | |} ---- ---- Oddly, the reason I would leave is that I'm still sticking to my guns. I thought that, as long as I was still valued as an audience rather than walking into a flea market, this game deserved my hard work. My recruitment. My time. It deserves it right now because every person playing mattered just as much as anyone else. The game was built to be good and was valued around that gameplay. And I said, from the very beginning, that if I ever became a target, I wasn't going to shill for a company whose purpose became selling things in the game instead of selling the game. Even beyond everything I know about F2P and what I know would be coming in the event of a payment model change, the most important thing is the change in the relationship between player and producer. Exactly the same reason I believe the game needs support now reverses. But the payment model change hasn't happened, so for now they still have my support. As long as I'm a target audience rather than a plain old target, I'm not going anywhere. All that's changed lately is that I've become pretty sure that, if a payment model change DOES happen, it's not going to be benign or benevolent. The current profit margins are too low and the recent rewards gamblebox was pretty nasty. I don't have much faith NCSoft, if they did go F2P, would reinvent the wheel and actually come up with something I could stomach. | |} ---- I have a pretty good idea of what I will do if Wildstar goes F2P, B2P or freemium. I will do the same thing that I did with both Aion and TERA, which is I will stick around with an "elite" status until a new beta comes out that will be a sub based model. If it's a good game I will transition to that one when it launches and probably stick around until it goes F2P or B2P or Freemium. Both Aion and TERA did a fairly good job in the beginning of their transition but ultimately succumbed to putting necessary items on the cash shop. So I don't see why Wildstar would do anything differently. I will hate it if Wildstar goes F2P or any of the other models because sooner rather than later it too will do the same. I love this game, same as I used to love Aion and TERA but I hate what they have become. | |} ---- ---- ---- Nope- if this doesn't work out, I'm out for something different. I have my eye on one game in particular (PvP) that will be a complete departure for me. But I'm never going back to tab-targeting. | |} ---- ---- Bird drop?? (Trying to stay on topic haha.) Pax has a big group gearing up for it already, I'm excited! And since I've gotten a 5 - year patron membership for my kickstarter backing I'll be there for a while! | |} ---- I wouldn't. How many companies can have a game become so markedly better as Wildstar has and still lose half its profits? How could anyone look at those numbers and think that what the game could really use is a focus outside of gameplay? Someone somewhere is screwing up badly, and if gameplay can get sacrificed on the altar of money, there's absolutely no reason now why NCSoft should care about keeping the game fun. So far, NCSoft hasn't been able to sell "fun." | |} ---- Yep. It looks pretty fresh to me. My heart is going to be with WS as long as it's fun for me. But if it goes a direction I don't like or I just burn out, then that is probably my next stop. What I would do in the meantime, I don't know. | |} ---- I justify it to myself by thinking, PVE: WildStar. PVP: bird game. | |} ---- :D Well, the last PvP game I played was Unreal Tournament. I've always liked the idea of PvP, but my of my RL friends prefer PvE. However, my experience lately with PvP is that I don't enjoy the kind of people you end up playing with. That is, I like competition, not so much the name calling and stuff that happens here in WS. I pretty much stay away from PvP in WS now. My interaction with the PvP Community just has left me sour. If I'm honest with myself, it's probably wishful thinking to think I'd enjoy myself in a full on PvP game. But I really like the idea of strategizing and playing against real life players. I still haven't gotten tired of raiding, though. And I really, REALLY like the WS raids a lot. If they keep being as fun as they are, my sub is safe with them (assuming they'll keep some kind of sub model). | |} ---- ---- Yeah I've basically written off pvp here except as a way o fill out amps/abilities because of the community that currently holds sway in that part of the game. Fortunately there is still a game out there to scratch that pvp itch for me. And I'm excited to try raiding. I never made it through attunement with my Dominion but my Medic is getting very close! | |} ---- ---- Hey, it's us who made it this way, and accepted it, and preached it. You're asking me to pick between two options, either the game shutting down or accepting F2P. I don't have to; I have other options. You can't exalt the people who left and blame the people who stayed, then blame the people who would leave now. Other companies (SquareEnix in particular) have proved that not only can it be done, it can make high quality games. I don't buy what you preach here as the gospel. | |} ---- I understand where you're coming from-- and honestly I would've been on the same page with you a few months ago-- but I'd have to see how they rolled out F2P before necessarily being against it. If done right, it could be a big net gain. My hope is that they view F2P simply as a means of removing a barrier to crowds, not as a means of turning the game into a big swap meet. If you greatly increase the number of people playing, it changes the economics of the situation completely (not to mention peoples' enjoyment of the game). If they did it like SWtoR, I'd be cancelled before I finished laughing. Oh man, that's making me laugh again now... PAY FOR AN ACTION BAR AND THE ABILITY TO RUN. Hahahahahahhaa | |} ---- It could be a lot of things. But if you think that F2P just removes a barrier to crowds when they're hemorrhaging sales in the face of better gameplay, you're not being realistic. That's what those numbers in their sales mean to me, the death of my faith in NCSoft being able to hang with the big boys. I've been giving them a chance, against my own experience and the experience of a lot of my peers, but it turns out they could be exactly who we thought they were. So I've zero reason to expect anything. I'll see what they have to say, but I've no reason to extend them a line of credit. | |} ---- ---- ---- Fo' sho' That's the thread of continuity we should be focusing on! | |} ---- I totally understand where you're coming from and respect your thoughts on a possible model change. You never know. You could see it going well and it not changing for the worse and always venture back if you choose to quit for a bit. You know? I know personally I have tried pretty much every MMO to release in the last 10 years and nothing really seemed to stay other than WoW until about 2 years ago when I was just burned out on it. Right now the only MMOs I seem to enjoy are SWTOR and WildStar. Not including any I am waiting for as there are a few that aren't even in testing yet that I am keeping an eye on. | |} ---- ---- Well, because I'm not a fool. You have to understand my trepidation walking into Wildstar primarily because of NCSoft. The odds were that Wildstar would release as a sub game, struggle, then be turned into a F2P mine fleecing the old players. I decided to risk it anyway, despite the protestations of my friends. I thought that Wildstar, of all games, might be good enough to get by as a subscription game. And the game has been good and has gotten better. That is not guaranteed. Our latest news is that, as the game has gotten better, the sales have gotten worse. If that isn't a giant, screaming, blinking red alarm to you, I don't know what to say. This game is not making money by being good, and the game needs to make money. The priorities will shift. As it turns out, the game is precisely what everyone said it was and NCSoft is exactly who everyone said they were. I'm sticking it out to see what happens, but I'm eating a lot of crow on my side for having taken a chance on it. I'm certainly not going to continue supporting NCSoft after they prove it in hopes that I'm only half wrong. Besides, it's not like they're going to need someone like me around. I'm here to make the game more fun to play for other people. A free game living on a shop is essentially a mall, they're inviting everyone in and just selling stuff to them when they're inside. They don't need me to convince someone to buy a mount. But there are people all over Facebook, Youtube, and Reddit ready to replace me. So best of luck if they change the model. | |} ---- Tex knows what's up. Lots of opinions floating around, but there's no reason to jump all over anyone for voicing them. | |} ---- ---- ---- Honestly all you did was make predictions that didn't pan out. Doesn't seem like a very good reason to insult you. Sorry you're having a rough go of it. And it seems like you're really just torn between Dominion and Exile, so I'm gonna say that Chua have excellent animations. | |} ---- ---- There is no reason for anyone to ever harassing a member of any forum community for what they believe, this is just mean and underhanded and i hope whoever did this to you gets punished accordingly for their shitty behaviour. | |} ---- Agree completely. One thing to remember- these folks have to live with themselves for the rest of their loves. Vince, you get to move on. | |} ---- Hey, if it gets told, good luck to you guys. I'd rather cash in my chips while I'm ahead than wait to see how slowly it crumbles. | |} ---- Difference is, I'm currently raiding and I know for certain I have two more bosses and DS left to do, assuming I can keep a raid team together. I don't need any more content to keep me happy for at least another several months. And by that time, that other game I've been eyeing might start getting some attention. My biggest fear is that the roster boss returns, especially if the recent return to the game shuts down while people wait for a conversion. | |} ---- I plan to. I'm just one of those people that... even if they know what the road ahead looks like they're still grumpy about the fact that the road they're currently on is full of potholes. I'll be here until the lights go out, just like I was in CoH. | |} ---- I don't know. Like I said, I've got a lot of friends outside Wildstar who are making the valid point to me today that I'm giving NCSoft a lot of credit just by still hanging around in the face of all this. My friend Kaidavin just said NCSoft would thank me for paying to let them fund this little F2P venture. It's hard to really refute that. If they've made the decision and decided not to tell me just to string me along, and I'm losing faith they'll maintain in the face of adversity anyway, and I've got people on Gilgamesh telling me I've got a place when I get there if I don't start my own guild, I wonder what I am waiting for. | |} ---- ---- Just depends on where you'll have the most fun. For me, I AM still having fun here. But there's really no other current MMO I'm interested in either. | |} ---- You seem to be taking standard corporate policies as some kind of personal slight against you. Like, the whole reason no formal announcement has come out, is solely to milk Vic for every last dime they can. I mean, maybe ... just maybe ... they haven't ironed out all the details yet and can't just show-up with some halfassed press release to assuage your concerns. Companies don't sit on these things any longer than they need to. You know why? Because every day LIKE THIS ONE that passes without details is another day of potential lost revenue. I just think you're taking this way too personally, brother. It ain't about you. | |} ---- Well, that's a big problem, because I only JUST decided not to sub to this and FFXIV:ARR at the same time. So I do have another current MMO I'd be interested in. The only reason I didn't sub to both was because I was interested in doing the long-term thing in Wildstar, but if there's no long-term, and if everything I do here is a last hurrah, none of it is very fun anymore. Maybe I should hand off the guild tonight and just take it as read. It seems to be about as "stated" as it can be anymore. No, I don't think NCSoft is doing this for my particular money. But it is my particular money. Like I said, Tex, I don't enjoy being a target instead of a target audience. I'm not under the impression they care about me or what I do in particular. But I care very much what I do. There's no malice here. I just don't feel it's wise to continue paying into something it's only becoming more clear I'm not going to be using. I'd rather put that money somewhere else where I feel it's better utilized. | |} ---- Nah, don't make a hasty jump. Or I wouldn't. You don't know what their freemium model is gonna look like. Yeah, the cat thing was bad, but we just don't know. You've got a lot invested here, and it isn't all changing tomorrow. The dungeons and shiphands are still fun. You could still come tank GA on Sunday if you want (hint, hint). There are good times to be had. And clearly NCSoft is behind this game in someway because they ARE putting it on steam. And if the "leak" is accurate, they are actually positioning themselves to be a pretty big steam player. That shows a lot of confidence in where this game can go. I don't think there's a downside to waiting, but that's me. | |} ---- I agree wholeheartedly, I just really hope the playerbase can refrain from kneejerk reactions. Like I've said, this should really be a time of nigh celebration. I was scared Wildstar would be unceremoniously dumped, instead it's going to Steam. That's practically the exact opposite of what I was scared of. | |} ---- On the one hand, yes that seems to be a fairly standard practice. On the other we still haven't seen any explanation of the promotion. "Shut and maybe they'll forget about it." seems to be CRB's MO of late. | |} ---- ---- Ah well, you know, I've explained it before over and over, and it doesn't get through. And you've explained over and over how it's fine, and it doesn't get thorough. And you know, that's fine. People like me and Vic don't like it, and people like you do (or have no problem with it). Just opposite sides of the fence. At some point, I just stopped trying to explain and have instead decide to go with "take my word for it- according to what I want out of the game, the cat thing sucked". You don't have to agree, just accept that's how I feel about it. | |} ---- ---- Well, for me, there is a BIG downside. I don't know if you noticed, but I do a lot of community talking, organization, long-term stuff. It's why I took over the Blazing Saddles, offered to help Neph with both Thaydfests, built places for everyone to be. I was hoping we'd get a moment of glory when all things would slowly build up from, our own little FFXIV:ARR moment. The game deserved that. We didn't get that, though, it appears. The dungeons and shiphands just aren't as much fun knowing that the rewards we would have gotten from them will start ending up behind a paywall. Knowing that the influx of players we'll be getting are the people I've been avoiding the game's Facebook, YouTube, and Reddit sites over makes the game a lot less fun. Worse is knowing that, having really poured all this time into a game because I thought it valued every single player as a player, we're going to now have the game coming to us asking if we'd make a donation for some trinket. I've seen F2P destroy the essence of just about everything it's ever touched. I don't really want to be around to see it continue on, devoid of what it was. Maybe if I had nowhere else to go, I'd agree with you, but I do. If I didn't have anything to do when I got there, I might be more inclined to wait it out. But I do have things I need to be working on if I do leave. And, unfortunately, looking around the forums, I'm not really feeling like I should stick around. I'm only dampening the party. I suppose I'm just less convinced now than I was that we'd weasel our way out of this one this time. It's just looking more and more like I should skip town before the vanguard arrives. | |} ---- ---- ---- I gotta tell you, those reusable cups are *amazing*. All it leaves are coffee grounds for my compost :D | |} ---- Try a French Press for coffee, seriously, you won't be sorry. In Wildstar news: The forums have me so depressed that I think I'm going to take a sabbatical from Wildstar, or at the very least, the forums. The willful and destructive attitudes here just muddy up my aura :( Not in Morning Coffee but...you know...out there in general discussion. | |} ---- ---- ---- If I contributed to that I am sorry. I feel like I dialed the salt up to 11 today. | |} ---- You weren't alone. I was pissy as hell last night and now I'm just bummed out. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- For what it's worth I was sending you meaningless up votes haha. Even after you deleted the account I could still tell which is which. Damn you Carbine, making me check REDDIT to scratch the WildStar itch during maintenance. Deleting the app from my phone now. | |} ---- I appreciate it. I'm not too fond of reddit anymore since you basically get downvoted into obscurity for expressing what you actually think. Happens in every damn sub I've been through. Though this is the first time I've had to take such drastic action. Oh well. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Both of those took my motivations for playing and decided to sell them piecemeal on a cash shop. Result? Horrible game experience. | |} ---- In what way? | |} ---- Really? I've been playing Tera and I think the model is superb. It doesn't feel pay 2 win at all, in fact it feels like you can just play and it's the full game. Okay, well, founder title aside. | |} ---- They ruined the dye system and completely removed customization from their costume system as well. All cosmetic stuff? Cash shop. It's also infested with RNG boxes and its cash shop is horrendously expensive particularly compared to other MMOs. Rift is not as awful, but they still dump their cosmetic stuff and dimension items on the cash shop, and things that you buy for gold are now much more expensive than they used to be. | |} ---- While some of the cosmetic stuff is unfortunate, I'm truly in favor of the fact that the game does not restrict access content based on F2P or subscribed status. I'm much more concerned with access to the gameplay, than purely cosmetic things. Rift is the ideal F2P model in my opinion (Outside of the more recent earrings slot issue, but I have not played it in some time), and I think it's a little disingenuous to say that they dump all of their cosmetic stuff on the cash shop, as before it went F2P the cosmetics didn't really exist for the most part. (As in items that exist predominately for cosmetic applications) As to the gold part, that has nothing to do with F2P, and everything to do with inflation, so again, unfair to attribute that to the F2P model. Regarding dimension items, all a cash shop allows you to do with those is purchase the items for credits rather than gold. Dimensions were already very expensive before, so yet again I don't think that's a very valid reason to dislike it. All that said, if you had a 'horrible game experience' because some cosmetics, particularly in Rift, are on the cash shop yet you can play the entire game for free, I'd question the validity of this issue. | |} ---- ---- Sorry, I shouldn't have phrased it like that, that was callous of me. I was more referring to the validity of it in terms of hurting the overall game. I see where you're coming from though, I just don't entirely agree with it. Regardless, my point is, as I said, more of the fact that done well a F2P system is not inherently a bad thing. And frankly, I think having the push towards the cash shop for cosmetics is the best way to go about it, as it avoids creating issues within the game as the cosmetics do not affect gameplay. EDIT: That said, I do agree the dye part with TERA was poorly done. My view on F2P in general is that rather than take away from F2P players, entice them with bonuses if they do pay. SWTOR is extremely guilty of the former, while Rift predominately does the latter. | |} ---- maybe not for you. for others those cosmetics are the gameplay. your whole argument can be boiled down to I'm ok with other peoples content being put into a cash shop but keep my content out of it. | |} ---- No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that having additional cosmetic purchases available on the cash shop is far preferable to having to pay $5 per week if you want to do more than 3 dungeons, or cough up $20 to unlock your house. Cosmetics have alternatives. Gameplay does not. Please do not twist my words around. No matter how you phrase it, cosmetics are not gameplay. You might play to earn cosmetics, but that is still not gameplay. | |} ---- ---- ----